越南网友：中国帮什么了?为啥认为越南忘恩负义?
在越南长期的抗美救国战争中，中国一直是支援最大、态度最坚决的国家。仅1971年至1973年，中国向越南提供的经济、军事援助金额就已经超过90亿元人民币。从1950年代到1975年5月1日越南南方完全解放，中国援助越南总额为203.6845亿元人民币，其中一般援助100.6742亿元。包括粮食500万吨、石油200万吨、汽车3.5万辆、船只600艘；军事援助金额为49.6679亿元，其中轻重武器装备可供200万军人使用；成套项目援助为36.2619亿元，建设项目为450项，已经完成339项；美元现汇援助折合人民币为17.0805亿元。此外，中国还对越南进行了大量军事支持。从1965年起，派遣大批扫雷、运输、防空、工程、铁道及后勤部队进入越南，总计32万人次，共击落敌机1700架，俘获美军飞行员42人；修建改建铁路479公里、公路1231公里。在以上铁一般的事实面前，越南网友却说，为什么中国人认为越南是忘恩负义的白眼狼？我们看看中越两国网友是怎么说的。
问
中国网友王珍妮的回答
I can understand that.
我能理解这种说法。
Before and after the bloody war with France and the United States, more than 300,000 Chinese soldiers came to Vietnam to fight and help the North Vietnamese.
在与法国和美国的血腥战争前后，超过30万中国士兵来到越南战斗并帮助北越。
These often overlooked Chinese soldiers are largely absent from Vietnamese Latin history books.
这些通常被忽视的中国士兵，在越南拉丁文写成的历史书中基本没有记载。
In response to American air strikes, North Vietnam asked Chinese anti-aircraft artillery units to join the war. In response, People's Liberation Army (PLA) troops began entering North Vietnam in July 1965 to help defend Hanoi and its main transportation system.
作为对美国空袭的回应，北越曾要求中国高射炮部队加入战争。作为回应，人民解放军(PLA)部队于1965年7月开始进入北越，帮助保卫河内及其主要交通系统。
1965年6月至1968年3月，中国驻北越军队总数超过32万人。高峰年份是1967年，当时有17万中国士兵在越南作战。
During the same period, the Communist Party of Vietnam (North Vietnam) had a peak of 690,000 troops. In other words, more than 20% of the soldiers who fought in the name of North Vietnam during the US-Vietnam War were actually members of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA).
在同一时期，越南共产党(北越)有69万军队的高峰。换句话说，在美越战争中，超过20%以北越名义作战的士兵实际上是中国人民解放军(PLA)的成员。
On April 22, 2019, Lt. Gen. Lee Hsien Wen, Deputy director of the General Political Bureau of the Vietnamese People's Army, met with a delegation of families of Chinese soldiers and martyrs who are visiting Vietnam at the invitation of the Ministry of National Defense.
2019年4月22日，越南人民军总政治局副局长李显文中将会见了应国防部邀请访问越南的中国抗美战士和抗美援越烈士家属代表团以表示感谢。
In the tough 1960s, China still supplied Vietnam with a lot of weapons and equipment.
在艰难的六十年代，中国仍然向越南提供了大量的武器装备。
I got this chart from Wikipedia, weapons on the table, like:
我从维基百科上找到了这张图表，桌子上的武器，比如：
In 1960, the price of a shell was several hundred dollars, while the average annual income of the Chinese people could not afford a shell at that time, and a shell was equivalent to the income of a Chinese family for two or three years. It cost hundreds of millions of Chinese years of income just to support the shells in Vietnam!
1707.4万枚炮弹，在1960年，一枚炮弹的价格要几百美元，而当时中国人的平均年收入还买不起一枚炮弹，一枚炮弹相当于一个中国家庭两三年的收入。这花费了数亿中国人几年的收入，只是为了支持越南的抗争!
Let's take a look at what some Vietnamese have to say:
可今天让我们来看看一些越南人是怎么说的：
"China had virtually nothing to do with Vietnam's war of independence against France or the Vietnam War between Vietnam and the United States."
“中国实际上与越南反对法国的独立战争或越南与美国之间的越南战争无关，他们为什么要掺和？”
"You see, it is basically impossible for China to say that it has provided material aid to Vietnam for more than two decades and sent more than 300,000 troops to help Vietnam fight when China itself was in trouble."
“你看，中国说向越南提供了二十多年的物资援助，在中国自己陷入困境的时候，派出了30多万军队帮助越南作战，这基本不可能。”
Before the Sino-Vietnamese War, the slogan of Vietnam's 316A Division was: "Fight to Friendship Pass for breakfast, fight to Nanning for the New Year." The slogan itself proves that Vietnam provoked China in the first place.
中越战争前，越南316A师的口号是:“早饭打到友谊关，过年打到南宁”。这句口号本身就证明是越南首先激怒了中国。
Seeing this, I think you can all understand why the Chinese say Vietnam is ungrateful!
看到这我想你们都能理解为什么中国人说越南忘恩负义了!
华裔网友梁孟俊的回答
I was quite surprised to see the Vietnamese misunderstand China in a strange way.
看到越南人以一种奇怪的方式误解中国，我感到相当惊讶。
China sacrificed a lot for Vietnam in the war against France and the United States. In the 1950s, '60s and' 70s, when China itself was in bad shape, it sheltered Vietnamese troops, trained them, and provided a lot of equipment and supplies for free.France intended to restore its colonial rule in Vietnam, not China.
在对抗法国和美国的战争中，中国为越南牺牲了很多。在20世纪50年代、60年代和70年代，中国自己状况不佳的时候，庇护越南部队，训练他们，并免费提供大量设备和物资。法国打算恢复其在越南的殖民统治，而不是中国。
However, China supported Vietnam/North Vietnam in the war and defended North Vietnam at the 1954 Geneva Conference, even sending air defense, construction, and medical units to Vietnam at the height of Vietnam's fight against the United States.
然而，中国在战争中支持越南/越南北部，并在1954年的日内瓦会议上捍卫越南北部，甚至在越南对抗美国的高峰时期向越南派遣了防空部队、建筑部队和医疗部队。
Now, according to some Vietnamese answers to this question, China is doing this because "they think Vietnam should obey China's will"? So why did the comrades of the Chinese Communist Party rescue Ho Chi Minh when he was arrested and imprisoned by the Kuomintang during World War II? Because his freedom is Vietnam's submission to China's will? That's funny.
现在，根据一些越南人对这个问题的回答，中国这样做是因为“他们认为越南应该服从中国的意志”。什么?那么为什么中国共产党的同志要在胡志明在二战期间被国民党逮捕和监禁时营救他呢?因为他的自由是越南对中国意志的屈服吗?真有意思。
Why do Chinese think Vietnamese are ungrateful? Because, after all the efforts China has made for Vietnam, Vietnam did not even say "thank you" in return, but started plundering at the border with China, occupying Chinese islands and turning their guns on their former comrade-in-arms (China). Yes, China announced a counterattack against Vietnam in 1979, but it was triggered by a series of border depredations orchestrated by the Vietnamese military. This is why China retreated after advancing a few tens of kilometers, because China was not going to occupy Vietnam)
为什么中国人认为越南人忘恩负义?因为，在中国为越南付出了这么多努力之后，越南甚至没有回报一句“谢谢”，而是在中越边境开始掠夺，占领中国岛屿，把枪口对准他们以前的战友(中国)。(是的，中国在1979年宣布了对越南的反击，但它是由越南军方策划的一系列边境掠夺引起的。这就是为什么中国在前进了几十公里后就撤退了，因为中国不打算占领越南)
Imagine that during the intense Second World War, the United States and Britain did a lot for France, but soon after the Nazi surrender, the French began harassing the Channel Islands. (Imagine, I say, and I don't mean to offend the US, the UK or France.) How would the US and the UK view France in my scenario? Ungrateful, of course, isn't it? Do the Americans and the British feel this way because they believe that France must submit to their will?
想象一下，在激烈的第二次世界大战期间，美国和英国为法国做了很多，但在纳粹投降后不久，法国开始骚扰海峡群岛。(我说想象一下，我无意冒犯美国、英国或法国)在我的场景中，美国和英国人会如何看待法国?自然是忘恩负义，对吧?美国和英国人有这种感觉是因为他们认为法国必须服从他们的意志吗?
Now, what surprises me most is that the Vietnamese who answer this question seem to ignore the help that China has done and continue to cling to their unfounded belief that China sees itself as the master of their vassal Vietnam, whoopie, the Chinese master helped the vassal Vietnam for free and the vassal Vietnam was free to choose which side (Soviet Union or China) they were on. In fact, China did not resist Vietnam's friendship with the Soviet Union, as both China and the Soviet Union helped Vietnam in its war against the United States) and even dared to seize the land of their master China? How stupid and naive must China be to justify this ridiculous situation?
现在，最让我惊讶的是，回答这个问题的越南人似乎忽略了中国所做的帮助，并继续坚持他们毫无根据的信念何想法，即中国认为自己是他们附庸越南的主人，呜呼，中国主人免费帮助附庸越南，附庸越南可以自由选择站在哪一边(苏联还是中国)。实际上，中国并没有抵制越南对苏联的友好，因为中国和苏联在越南对美国的战争中都帮助了越南)，甚至敢于抢占他们的主人中国的土地?中国该有多愚蠢和天真，才会给这种荒谬的情况找理由?
A client state can be liberated by throwing off its shackles, but if the mentality of its people remains self-centered, then they cannot be liberated.
一个附庸国可以通过挣脱枷锁而获得解放，但如果附庸国人民的心态仍然是自我的，那么他们就无法获得解放。
In my humble opinion, if someone did help but wasn't truly grateful, their denial of ingratitude proves their ingratitude.
依我拙见，如果确实有人帮了忙，但没有真正感恩戴德，他们否认忘恩负义就证明了他们已然忘恩负义。
越南网友阮晋成的回答
I look at it from a Vietnamese perspective:
我从一个越南人的角度看待这件事：
"We give you guns, we teach you how to shoot, and you turn around and shoot us."
“我们给你们枪，我们教你们如何射击，你们却转身向我们开枪。”
"We were all starving, but we gave you our food. When our soldiers attacked Vietnam, we found that you were eating our grain. We keep feeding people who stab us in the back."
“我们都快饿死了，但我们还是把食物给了你。当我们的士兵进攻越南时，我们发现你们在吃糟蹋我们的粮食。我们一直在给那些背后中伤我们的人提供食物。”
This is what the Chinese say every time this topic comes up.
每次这个话题出现时，中国人都会这么说。
The Chinese really believe that Vietnam should not fight back against China under any circumstances, just because China once supported Vietnam selflessly.
中国人真的相信越南在任何情况下都不应该反击中国，仅仅因为中国曾经无私支持过越南。
But Chinese political views are deeply shaped by culture and traditional beliefs.
但中国的政治观点深受文化和传统信仰的影响。
According to traditional thinking, Vietnam was a client state in history and should be absolutely loyal to China.
按照传统思维，越南在历史上是一个附庸国，应该对中国绝对忠诚。
In traditional Chinese thinking, if a ruler decides his subjects must die and they refuse, he is a traitor. If the father decides to let the son die and the son resists, then the son is an ungrateful son.
在中国传统观念中:如果统治者决定臣民必须死而臣民拒绝，这就是叛徒。如果父亲决定让儿子死，而儿子反抗，那么儿子就是一个忘恩负义的儿子。
China wants Vietnam to comply with China's wishes, even if it leads to self-destruction. If Vietnam does not do this, then it is an ungrateful country.
中国希望越南遵从中国的意愿，即使这会导致自我毁灭。如果越南不这样做，那么它就是一个忘恩负义的国家。
China has helped Vietnam so much, but it is in China's interest. However, according to the traditional Chinese concept, if you receive a drop of help, you need to return it with surging spring.
中国帮助了越南这么多，但这是出于中国的利益。然而，根据中国的传统观念，如果你得到了一滴帮助，你需要用涌泉来回报。
So in the case of Sino-Soviet relations, the Chinese really believe that Vietnam should side with China, even if it means that Vietnam will remain a divided country.
所以在中苏交恶的情况下，中国人真的认为越南应该站在中国一边，即使这意味着越南将继续维持为一个分裂的国家。
Because in 1972, China told North Vietnam to slow down the fighting because China had just established diplomatic relations with the United States and Vietnam had no choice but to side with the Soviet Union.
因为在1972年，中国告诉北越放慢战斗速度，因为中国刚刚与美国建立外交关系，越南别无选择，只能站在苏联一边。
Vietnam sided with the Soviet Union instead of China, which was a great affront to China. China considers itself a parent, even if it fights Vietnam, Vietnam does not dare and should not fight back.
越南站在苏联一边而不是中国，这对中国来说是一种极大的冒犯。中国认为自己是父母，即使打越南，越南也不敢更不应该打回去。
海外网友科尔格的回答
If the sources are to be believed, China sees Vietnam as ungrateful for good reason. As early as 1949 to 1977, China, like the Soviet Union, was the main supporter of the war of reunification in Vietnam. From 1949 to 1955, Chinese aid played an important role in Vietnam's war against France, turning Vietnamese guerrillas into a regular army.
如果消息来源可信的话，中国认为越南忘恩负义是有原因的。早在1949年到1977年，中国就和苏联一样，是越南统一战争的主要支持者。从1949年到1955年，中国的援助在越南对法国的战争中发挥了重要作用，将越南游击队变成了正规军。
From 1955 to 1977, China helped Vietnam develop while fighting the United States in the south. Here is a number I came across in my paper.
从1955年到1977年，中国帮助越南发展，同时在南方与美国作战。下面是我在论文中遇到的一个数字。
Considering that it was still difficult to get from China at the time, the amount of this support was enormous. In such trying times, this support was crucial to the struggle in Vietnam.
考虑到从中国当时还很困难，这种支持的数量是巨大的。在如此艰难的时期，这种支持对越南的斗争至关重要。
So, in a way, Vietnam owes China a lot. Therefore, China believed that Vietnam would support it in its competition with the Soviet Union. On the contrary, Vietnam is intent on unifying the country and indifferent to the quarrel between China and Russia. It wants to remain as neutral as possible.
所以，在某种程度上，越南欠中国很多。因此，中国相信越南会支持它与苏联竞争。相反，越南一心要统一国家，对中俄之间的争吵漠不关心。它希望尽可能保持中立。
Moreover, Vietnam was very active in Indochina, it was the center of the Indochina Communist movement, and its leaders took it for granted that it would dominate the region. China opposed Vietnam's aggression against Laos and Cambodia, a source of friction between the two countries between 1955 and 1975.
此外，越南在中南半岛非常活跃，它是中南半岛共产主义运动的中心，它的领导人理所当然地认为它将在该地区占据主导地位。中国反对越南对老挝和柬埔寨的侵略，这也是两国在1955年至1975年之间摩擦的根源。
So, for China, Vietnam is not the friendliest "brother". But Vietnam also has reasons to view China negatively. First, China normalized relations with the United States during the Vietnam War, which cast doubt on their commitment to helping Vietnam. Vietnamese leaders see this as a compromise that does not bode well for Vietnam or other communist countries, so it is not surprising for Vietnamese leaders to think that China is playing both sides behind their backs.
所以，对中国来说，越南不是最友好的“兄弟”。但越南也有理由对中国持负面看法。首先，在越南战争期间，中国与美国关系正常化，这使人们对他们帮助越南的承诺产生了怀疑。越南认为这是一种妥协，对越南来说都不是好兆头，所以对越南来说，认为中国背弃了他们。
Second, China has not helped Vietnam resolve the issue of the Chinese in Vietnam. These people, most of whom live in southern Vietnam, have refused to register as Vietnamese citizens and have even asked China for assistance. The Vietnamese government considered this a betrayal and took drastic measures. They may think that China will only make things worse for Vietnam.
第二，中国没有帮助越方解决越南华人问题。这些人大多生活在越南南部，他们拒绝登记为越南公民，甚至要求中国提供援助。越南政府认为这是背叛，并采取了严厉的措施。他们可能认为中国只会让越南的情况变得更糟。
Third, and most seriously, China aided Pol Pot. The Khmers have become very close to China and China has given them a lot of weapons as "aid". Vietnam asked China to act as an arbitrator, but China refused. Soon after, China also stopped all aid to Vietnam. The Vietnamese see this as an attempt by China to cut off all ties with Vietnam.
第三，也是最严重的，中国援助了柬埔寨，高棉人已经和中国走得很近，中国给了他们很多武器作为“援助”。越南要求中国担任仲裁人，但中国拒绝了。不久之后，中国也停止了对越南的一切援助。越南人认为这是中国试图切断与越南的所有关系。
The final straw was a full-scale Khmer offensive in 1979. In retaliation, Vietnam invaded Cambodia within two weeks and started an incident on the Sino-Vietnamese border, a decision that sealed Sino-Vietnamese relations for the next decade.
最后一根稻草是1979年高棉人的全面进攻。作为报复，越南在两周内入侵柬埔寨，并在中越边境生事，开枪的决定使中越关系在接下来的十年里画上了句号。
I think the war between China and Vietnam was the result of arrogance and misjudgment of each other's policies and actions. The US, Chinese and Khmer just added fuel to the fire, I don't think any country is at fault, but their actions led to a decade of hostility between the two countries and the current enmity.
我认为中越之间的战争是越南的傲慢和对彼此政策和行动的错误判断的结果。美国、华人和高棉人只是火上浇油，我不认为任何国家都有过错，但他们的行为导致了两国之间长达十年的敌意和目前的不和。
中国网友张可心的回答
When you only have $50 and you give someone $20, and then you two become enemies, what do you think of that person? -- Ungrateful.
当你只有50美元，你给了别人20美元，后来你们俩成了敌人，你怎么看那个人?——忘恩负义。
In 1975, when the United States withdrew and Vietnam was still demanding huge financial aid, the ailing premier Zhou Enlai confronted Vietnamese officers and said, "Please give us a break, we need to recover, too."
1975年，当美国撤军时，越南仍然要求巨额的经济援助，重病中的周恩来总理面对越南军官说:“请让我们喘口气吧，我们也需要恢复。”
After the unification of North Vietnam, they began to persecute Chinese Vietnamese, and many were forced to leave Vietnam.
北越统一后，他们开始迫害越南华人，许多人被迫离开越南。
Since 1974, Vietnam has used violence, even shooting, against Chinese civilians on the border.
自1974年以来，越南在边境对中国平民使用暴力，甚至开枪。
In fact, China continued to provide assistance until the war of self-defense against Vietnam began. The Vietnamese, on the other hand, always believe that they died on the front lines for China, and that "ingratitude" is government propaganda.
事实上，中国一直提供援助直到对越自卫反击战争开始。越南人却总是认为他们在前线为中国牺牲，认为“忘恩负义”是政府的宣传。
Here are two points:
这里有两点:
First of all, for forty years, the Chinese government has not wanted to talk about that war, so there is no so-called "propaganda", the "ungrateful" view of ordinary Chinese people is that they do not know the complicated international politics and dirty, they just think that they give selflessly, even if they do not have enough food, then the Vietnamese feel that they have crossed the line to hurt us, "It is obviously not our fault," Because we pay a lot, why would they do that?" So they want to know.
首先,四十年来，中国政府一直不想谈论那场战争,所以没有所谓的“宣传”,中国普通民众的“忘恩负义”的观点是,他们不知道的复杂的国际政治和肮脏的,他们只是认为他们无私赠送,即使他们没有足够的食物,然后越南人感越界伤害我们,“这显然不是我们的错，因为我们付出了很多，他们为什么要这样做?”所以他们想知道。
Second, the Vietnamese were clearly fighting for themselves, but when they got aid from others, they would say they were fighting for others.
第二，越南人显然是为自己而战，但当他们从别人那里得到援助时，他们会说他们是为别人而战。
When you do not help, they will beg you to help, you give them help, they think that you have evil intentions, so they should not be grateful to you.
当你不帮忙的时候，他们会乞求你帮忙，你给他们帮助，他们认为你心怀不轨，所以他们不应该感激你。
China had no need to offend the US, they had a chance to make peace with the US because of the Soviet threat, but they still chose to help Vietnam, even though China was also poor. (China even went to war with the Soviet Union in 1969, and then shook hands with Nixon in 1972, which the Vietnamese might have bristled at.)
中国没有冒犯美国的必要，由于苏联的威胁，他们有机会与美国和好，但他们仍然选择帮助越南，尽管中国也很穷。(中国甚至在1969年与苏联开战，然后在1972年与尼克松握手，越南人可能会对此感到愤怒)
After the unification of North Vietnam, they began to persecute Chinese Vietnamese, and many were forced to leave Vietnam.
北越统一后，他们开始迫害越南华人，许多人被迫离开越南。
Since 1974, Vietnam has used violence, even shooting, against Chinese at the border. Like I said above, Vietnam attacked China first.
自1974年以来，越南在边境对中国人使用暴力，甚至开枪。就像我上面说的，是越南先攻击中国。
